Crossing the Atlantic – airports on the way?
Question:
Hi, Someone here mentioned something in an earlier thread that I found intriguing: that a trans-Atlantic flight is pretty much like island hopping. Thinking about it, I can see that it seems not to be far-fetched: you fly over North-America, cross to Greenland, then Iceland… you’re almost there and never too far away from an airport. Is this in fact the route that’s usually taken? If so, another poster mentioned airports in Greenland that could be used in case of emergencies. Which ones would these be, and are they indeed suitable for letting the biggies land, e.g. a 747? Apart from runway length, accomodating passengers seems to be an issue, too. Has such an emergency ever occurred, i.e. did a plane ever have to divert to a Greenland airport? Thanks for replies, Ralph
Response:
Hi Generally, on transatlantic flights, they don’t fly straight over the ocean, but swerve north a bit and fly close to Greenland and Iceland. Sometimes there is also a layover in Iceland. I don’t think a plane has ever been diverted to Greenland, as I am not sure they can accomodate heavies like the Boeing 747. Should such an emergency occur, a plane would always be diverted to Iceland, as we have two airports suitable for 747’s, both the Keflavik International (KEF) and another one in the north of Iceland, Egilsstadir. I can recall one or two incidents in the past few years where planes from AA or UA have had to stop off in Iceland due to problems, but there was never anything major. Also, a layover in Iceland is no bad thing – great nightlife and nature, clean air and water, and just generally great! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi, > Someone here mentioned something in an earlier thread that I found > intriguing: that a trans-Atlantic flight is pretty much like island > hopping. Thinking about it, I can see that it seems not to be > far-fetched: you fly over North-America, cross to Greenland, then > Iceland… you’re almost there and never too far away from an airport. > Is this in fact the route that’s usually taken? > If so, another poster mentioned airports in Greenland that could be used > in case of emergencies. Which ones would these be, and are they indeed > suitable for letting the biggies land, e.g. a 747? Apart from runway > length, accomodating passengers seems to be an issue, too. > Has such an emergency ever occurred, i.e. did a plane ever have to > divert to a Greenland airport? > Thanks for replies, > Ralph
Response:
> I can recall one or two incidents in the past few years where planes > from AA or UA have had to stop off in Iceland due to problems, but > there was never anything major. Also, a layover in Iceland is no bad > thing – great nightlife and nature, clean air and water, and just > generally great!
And if you’re a billionaire, you might even be able to afford lunch! miguel — Hit The Road! Photos from 35 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu Latest photos: Malaysia, Israel, Palestine, Austria, Thailand
Response:
> Generally, on transatlantic flights, they don’t fly straight over the > ocean, but swerve north a bit and fly close to Greenland and Iceland.
Actually, that is straight over the ocean. What you probably mean is that the route isn’t a straight line on a flat map, but a great circle route, which looks like a curved line on a map, but is the shortest route, and a straight line on a globe. > I don’t think a plane has ever been diverted to Greenland, as I am not > sure they can accomodate heavies like the Boeing 747.
There are several airports on Greenland that can accommodate 747s, Thule and Sondre Stromfjord are two that come to mind. They have both regularly been visited by 747s, for various reasons. > Should such an emergency occur, a plane would always be diverted > to Iceland, as we have two airports suitable for 747’s, …
Here is an example of an SAS 767 that diverted to Greenland, to show it does actually happen: http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/05/2eur/sas937.html
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi, >Someone here mentioned something in an earlier thread that I found >intriguing: that a trans-Atlantic flight is pretty much like island >hopping. Thinking about it, I can see that it seems not to be >far-fetched: you fly over North-America, cross to Greenland, then >Iceland… you’re almost there and never too far away from an airport. >Is this in fact the route that’s usually taken? >If so, another poster mentioned airports in Greenland that could be used >in case of emergencies. Which ones would these be, and are they indeed >suitable for letting the biggies land, e.g. a 747? Apart from runway >length, accomodating passengers seems to be an issue, too. >Has such an emergency ever occurred, i.e. did a plane ever have to >divert to a Greenland airport? >Thanks for replies, >Ralph
Not the most direct route, but I think Sata used to have seasonal service (maybe they still do) from the US east coast to Lisbon with a stop in the Azores.
Response:
The routes vary day by day with the weather. occasionally they can be surprisingly far south making the Azores thhe preferred diversion. There are also different routes according to the entry point to the over water section and final destination. Flights from Nortthern Europe to th West Coast follow a more northerly route than those going to the east Coast.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Someone here mentioned something in an earlier thread that I found > intriguing: that a trans-Atlantic flight is pretty much like island > hopping. Thinking about it, I can see that it seems not to be far-fetched: > you fly over North-America, cross to Greenland, then Iceland… you’re > almost there and never too far away from an airport. > Is this in fact the route that’s usually taken? > If so, another poster mentioned airports in Greenland that could be used > in case of emergencies. Which ones would these be, and are they indeed > suitable for letting the biggies land, e.g. a 747? Apart from runway > length, accomodating passengers seems to be an issue, too. > Has such an emergency ever occurred, i.e. did a plane ever have to divert > to a Greenland airport? > Thanks for replies, > Ralph
Response:
> The routes vary day by day with the weather. occasionally they can be > surprisingly far south making the Azores thhe preferred diversion.
A few years ago I flew Dulles to Madrid and return on Spanair. We flew within sight of the Azores in both directions. I concluded that they didn’t have a long-enough ETOPS rating to venture very far from land. The distance from the Azores to Newfoundland is surprisingly short. Lucas Electric = Prince of Darkness
Response:
> Someone here mentioned something in an earlier thread that I found > intriguing: that a trans-Atlantic flight is pretty much like island > hopping. Thinking about it, I can see that it seems not to be > far-fetched: you fly over North-America, cross to Greenland, then > Iceland… you’re almost there and never too far away from an airport. > Is this in fact the route that’s usually taken?
Karl Swartz has a handy "Great Circle Mapper", which gives a fair idea of the routes most likely to be taken. While reading the thread about the BA 747 from LAX to LHR, I built up this URL: http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=lax-man-lhr-lax-ord-lhr-jfk-lax That represents an imaginary 7-segment path. Working for top to bottom and left to right on the map itself, the tracks are: LAX-MAN-LHR Los Angeles -> Manchester -> London LAX-LHR Los Angeles -> London direct LAX-ORD-LHR Los Angeles -> Chicago -> London LAX-JFK-LHR Los Angeles -> New York -> London Each of those routes gives several hours’ flight time within easy reach of US or Canadian airfields, with something like half the total flight path over North America. The northerly routes are, perhaps, marginally safer in that they go over Greenland and close to Iceland. In Ye Olden Dayes, it was quite common for eastbound flights to put down to refuel at Prestwick (near Glasgow in Scotland) or at Shannon (in Ireland) when winds were not as favourable as had been hoped. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if a flight from New York to Dublin set out with just as much fuel as the same crew would select for the same load of passengers and freight bound for London. Why? If they don’t carry sufficient fuel to *guarantee* reaching Shannon then they have big problems. The London-bound flight will *probably* have enough fuel to complete the planned trip with approved reserves, but they have options for refuelling a Shannon, Dublin, Cardiff, Bristol, etc. Around 15 years ago, I believe a *very* senior BA captain’s aeroplane used somewhat more fuel than usual on a transatlantic flight to Heathrow, and the captain elected *not* to refuel at Shannon. He landed safely at Heathrow, but without the approved reserves. AIUI, he was put to flying a desk for the few months until his retirement. Methinks the 747 crew would have been aware of that incident and been quite sure not to do something similar. I think they would also be aware of a QANTAS 747 that landed at Heathrow some years ago without a great deal of fuel (IIRC, that one was below statutory reserves when it was refuelled at the stand, but it wasn’t clear whether it had actually *landed* with statutory reserves and burnt the difference while taxiing in). AIUI, the QANTAS captain should have landed at Schipol for fuel (or have wheedled an explicit assurance out of British ATC to the effect that he wouldn’t be held in a stack before landing). In Ye Reale Olden Dayes, it was quite a common practice for westbound flights to make *scheduled* stops at Prestwick or at Shannon to brim the tanks.
Response:
> The actual flight may usually be somewhat south of the path needed to > use Iceland & Greenland. This week I was flying from Milan to Atlanta. > They had a maintenance problem that required that the flight be nearer > than usual to alternate airports. We thus flew near to Iceland & over > Greenland. If there had not been a problem they would have taken a > quicker route farther south.
The normal routes between Europe and the USA go by route that is determined by the great circle and by the prevailing winds enroute. So sometimes the routes (North Atlantic tracks) take the aircraft over Iceland and Greenland and sometimes the tracks go well to the south of Iceland. These routes are flown by aircraft going from Western Europe to the US east coast, aircraft from central Europe or aircraft going to central or western USA go over Iceland and Greenland under all circumstances.
Response:
The actual flight may usually be somewhat south of the path needed to use Iceland & Greenland. This week I was flying from Milan to Atlanta. They had a maintenance problem that required that the flight be nearer than usual to alternate airports. We thus flew near to Iceland & over Greenland. If there had not been a problem they would have taken a quicker route farther south. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Ralph Holz schrieb: >Someone here mentioned something in an earlier thread that I found >intriguing: that a trans-Atlantic flight is pretty much like island >hopping. Thinking about it, I can see that it seems not to be >far-fetched: you fly over North-America, cross to Greenland, then >Iceland… you’re almost there and never too far away from an airport. > Besides flights from Europe to South America and vice versa. > Regards, ULF
Response:
Ralph Holz schrieb: > Someone here mentioned something in an earlier thread that I found > intriguing: that a trans-Atlantic flight is pretty much like island > hopping. Thinking about it, I can see that it seems not to be > far-fetched: you fly over North-America, cross to Greenland, then > Iceland… you’re almost there and never too far away from an airport.
Besides flights from Europe to South America and vice versa. Regards, ULF
Response:
> Hi, > Has such an emergency ever occurred, i.e. did a plane ever have to divert > to a Greenland airport?
Thule and was it "Bluie West One" have in their time seen the comings and goings, often unplanned, of almost every a/c type, military and civilian, to fly the Atlantic. USAF operated auerial tankers routinely, and my first crossing – a C-130 out of McGuire missed Greenland, but stopped in Newfoundland, Iceland, Prestwick & RheinMain. Heavily loaded, a/c of the WWII and postwar era took just as much runway as today’s birds and often more. Heavy B-36s hardly sprang into the sky, and put plenty AVGAS and a bomb or two in a B-29 and it was a long roll to lift off. The tales of ferrying P-38s, P-47s and P-51s make hairy reading, and a crossing in a C-47 needed some stops. TMO
